Transcript
[00:00:01.52] CARRIE COOPER: Officially launched in 2021, William & Mary's strategic plan, Vision 2026, tackles 21st century imperatives directly expanding the university's reach in several key areas-- data and computational sciences, water conservation, the history and future of democracy, and career pathways for graduates. My name is Carrie Cooper, Dean of University Libraries
[00:00:25.44] GINGER AMBLER: And I am Ginger Ambler, Vice President for Student Affairs. As co-chairs of the Democracy Initiative at William & Mary, we are delighted to sponsor this Vision 2026 podcast. It is part of a special series designed to explore issues related to democracy, as well as the compelling ways democracy intersects with data, water, and careers. We welcome you and invite you to listen as leading researchers, teachers, students, and practitioners consider the critical pillars of William & Mary's strategic plan
[00:01:00.02] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: I'm Emily Tavoulareas, Managing Chair of the Tech and Society Initiative at Georgetown University. Also, I am a William & Mary alum, class of 2004. Hey everyone! Today, we will be talking about how principles of democracy and experience in self-governance show up in residence halls across the William & Mary campus. Today, I'm thrilled to be speaking with Sam Sadler, retired vice president for student affairs, Danny Lee, assistant director for residence life, and Elison Esposo, senior at William & Mary, and in his third year as a resident assistant for several residence halls across campus and the president of the residence hall association.
[00:01:45.32] I want to start with some history here. Even as an alumni, I did not realize that my experience with my hallmates and living on this campus was a result of William & Mary prioritizing self-determination across the campus. So before we dig into the current experience, I want to rewind a bit for some history on how William & Mary ended up with such an intentional focus on self-determination for students. And I want to start with you, Sam. You were at William & Mary for how many years?
[00:02:18.31] SAM SADLER: 41.
[00:02:19.20] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: 41. What does self-determination mean at William & Mary? And tell us a bit about how and why it became a priority.
[00:02:30.78] SAM SADLER: Let's talk about the how and why it became a priority first. You need to remember that in the late '60s, we had this period of incredible disruption throughout the country. On college campuses, the dominant philosophy behind student life was something called in loco parentis, in place of parents. The administration was generally believed to have the authority of parent over students, and that's the way students were treated.
[00:03:02.70] Students didn't have very many privileges until they reached the age of 21. They couldn't vote, they couldn't purchase alcohol, they could be drafted, and Vietnam was on at the time. Men and women had different regulations. Men and women's residence halls were staffed differently. There were curfews, mandatory lock ups, a lot of very strict regulation. And three things came together at the same time. You had the '60s happening, Vietnam, the civil rights movement. There were shootings of protesting students at three campuses, major protests breaking out at William & Mary and elsewhere. It was a time of tremendous turmoil and change.
[00:03:49.79] Then, at the same time at William & Mary, you had a big jump in the number of students applying and in the quality of student who came. That was important. And we were going through a shift, which occurs about every 30 years in faculty. A large number of older faculty retiring, new faculty with different ideas coming in. And in 1972, a very dramatic change in the administration of the college when the president retired and a new president, Tom Graves, came in. All of this created some tremendous upheavals on campus in student outlook, student attitude. And students started demanding that things change.
[00:04:36.93] And they created something called the Board of Student Affairs. I don't even know whether it's still in existence today or not. It was the president's response to students demanding a voice. And this board, which was largely student, had on it, I believe four administrators. I was one when I became Dean of Men. But students were in the majority, yet everything had to be approved by the administration. And demands, as they came about from students and came through the BSA, were often rejected.
[00:05:14.03] Finally, the Board of Student Affairs said, we need a statement of rights and responsibilities for students. President said, fine, I'll give you one. It was a statement of responsibilities with very few rights. Students didn't like that, obviously-- let it be known. And board went back to work. And out of that came something called self-determination. BSA drafted a policy. It took a couple of years for it to be approved, but I think it had the foundation-- the philosophical foundation of what self-determination has become over the years.
[00:05:54.71] I went back and was reminded of some of the changes that self-determination was intended to produce. And the most important, perhaps, is the philosophy that it states, and I quote, "what better way to educate students about the obligations of citizenship in a democracy than to provide them with the opportunity to make decisions about matters of daily life that impacted them and their peers directly. Self-determination would be a powerful way to teach the lessons of democracy."
[00:06:29.66] Now, they were to be guided in this work by a trained professional staff. The college did not have a trained professional staff. It had house mothers in the women's dorms and law students, mostly, in the men's dorms. So that required getting a staff. And it also insisted, as the administration did, that whatever came out of those councils that were to be created to guide the residence halls had to be within the broader boundaries of college regulation and the law. But that created the framework from which self-determination emerged.
[00:07:07.44] And after a trial period of 18 months, which showed a lot of deficiencies, because frankly, we weren't all that well prepared to implement such a dramatic policy, the Board of Visitors demanded a review of the policy and how it was implemented. I remember drafting that and taking it to the board. It was my first board meeting after I was appointed acting Dean of Students, and I was shaking. I was nervous because I was going to have to admit that not everything had gone well.
[00:07:39.57] And we can talk about what some of those things were, if you're interested. But miraculously, the board said, OK, you make the changes that are needed, and we will continue the policy. And it's been in effect now for 50 years.
[00:07:52.61] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: Wow. I love the fact that you went in nervous about it not going as you imagined or as intended or as well as you thought it could have, and then essentially being given permission to correct those things and move along. Which I think actually encapsulates one of the things that is of utmost importance in democracy and in institutions is the ability to look reality in the face and say, we don't know everything. We can't know it until we start to try. And we need to be able to adjust. Can you say more about what that was like and what adjustments needed to be made?
[00:08:40.46] SAM SADLER: Well, let me just give you one example and maybe a couple more will come to mind. I said we had house mothers and law students in the residence halls. The house mothers were required to lock up the buildings every night and to enforce the curfews, and they were enforced rigorously. And these were well-intentioned people, but mostly they were retired people for whom it was a job. It was not a part of-- they didn't see themselves necessarily, I think, as part of the learning structure of the institution.
[00:09:16.67] So one thing that was required was a complete overhaul of how residence halls were staffed. And we had to go out and find people who had some training and then retrained them to the culture of William & Mary, before this really became a policy that was implemented with the intent that we had in mind for it. That was both controversial, some of the-- particularly the women in several of the halls had been here a long time and were loved. Some were not so loved. But it did require a lot of change in staffing, and they had to be a different kind of staff from what the college had had before.
[00:09:58.66] Training for the councils-- we anticipated councils. We'd never had those before. So we had to develop a training plan. And we had implemented this without doing that, which really left a lot to be desired. I mean, those are two basic ones. But there were four or five major things that had to happen before this could really become a policy that could move forward.
[00:10:27.23] A lot of the residents hall councils were chosen the first couple of days. They saw their responsibility primarily as to give people the right to have members of the opposite sex visit them in the residence halls, and that's really all they cared about initially. But we had included in the things that self-determination was supposed to do the right for halls to establish their own programming in the halls, which we discovered required some funding. We weren't prepared to fund that initially. That had to happen.
[00:10:58.00] So there were a whole host of changes that had to be made. And looking back on it, I don't know why we thought this could be done in just with a pen and ink signature on a piece of paper because it required a lot of modification, a lot of patience, some considerable oversight because not all hall councils accepted their responsibilities. And it probably took, I would say, five years to get this to a point where it really was beginning to function the way it was intended.
[00:11:36.37] But I recall vividly standing in front of my parents on opening day the first year we did this, and every year thereafter, and saying, now, this is the way we operate our residence halls. We regard it as an exercise in self-government. We also acknowledge that some of your kids may not have had all the experience necessary to do that. We have a staff there to guide them along the way. They will receive training in how to do this. And we will hold them accountable within the college's policies for carrying out these things. So if you think about what democracy is-- there also was, I guess, one more thing I would add.
[00:12:22.54] I think the other thing is we hadn't really thought very much about the extent to which our young students had had experience in dealing with difference. And that took some time, and it took some specialized training. We had to bring in some people to do the training for students-- for staff members.
[00:12:45.55] But our theory was that if-- by living together, students could come to know the techniques required to listen, to discuss, to plan together, that we could make a contribution to their understanding of how democracy on a broader scale worked. And I firmly believe that's happened. I think that's been one of the great outcomes of self-determination.
[00:13:14.87] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: That's incredible. That's incredible. What year would you say the vision that you all had for this came together?
[00:13:25.69] SAM SADLER: You mean ultimately came together, not just the beginnings?
[00:13:28.52] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: Yes. That you looked at it and thought, there it is. That's what we're aiming for.
[00:13:34.37] SAM SADLER: I think by the early '80s.
[00:13:36.17] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: The early '80s.
[00:13:36.95] SAM SADLER: Yeah.
[00:13:38.38] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: I want to shift to Danny, who really focuses on training. Sam was telling us about how critical of a role training played in getting the campus to a point where it could achieve this vision. And Danny, you now are focused on training resident assistants and creating culture for residence life. Can you tell us a bit about your work and how what Sam has described sort of shows up in what you all do today?
[00:14:10.37] DANNY LEE: Mhm. Yeah, so what Sam has shared about finding those professionals who are trained and working with young adult students, college-aged students living on campus-- I am a product of that. I went to grad school at Florida International University for higher education administration, where I learned about student development theory and transition to college and what does it take to understand the different dynamics of our students.
[00:14:42.62] And as an assistant director here in charge of training, one of the things that we introduced our resident assistants to is the idea of what self-determination is at William & Mary-- the importance of when gathering their residents and leading, facilitating the conversations on community agreements, which is kind of the first step where RAs are introducing themselves and their role in the community. Articulating those university policies, those state policies that we have to follow, but also carving out a space where they're able to articulate to their residents, this is the area that we have some determination over when it comes down to quiet hours, when it comes down to guests interacting in our spaces how we will address each other and confront each other.
[00:15:35.08] And when we are in those training sessions, myself with our area directors who are also professional staff members who were brought up in the higher ed world, we really train them to just be able to lead those conversations and make sure everyone's voice is being heard. And we're also been incorporating social circles where students are able to gather and understand equal speaking time and being able to identify those who may not be speaking up.
[00:16:09.03] Our RAs are really good at even after the meeting, there's residents that will come to them and say, well, this is my idea. And the RA being able to-- in the next meeting be able to incorporate some of those ideas. And so it's a multi-step approach when training our RAs and it's a team effort. But the long term strategy is just to make sure that our RAs are prepared to talk to their peers, facilitate those conversations with their peers, and hopefully come to a consensus of how they want to see their community run.
[00:16:42.13] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: That's incredible. It's the kind of skill that you can't learn in a classroom. You just can't.
[00:16:46.81] DANNY LEE: Yeah.
[00:16:48.43] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: Danny, you mention a number of different things here, and I wanted to focus a little bit about the practical nature of decision-making and what students focus on and how. So can you tell us a little bit about what kinds of things that students weigh in on and how they do so?
[00:17:12.01] DANNY LEE: OK. So I would say, and Elison will feel free to chime in because as someone who's on the ground, he's able to really see what are the things that students stay a little longer on with topics and other things that they move quickly through. But a lot of decisions that our students focus on and are really narrow in their vision on is one, quiet hours.
[00:17:40.03] I think I was saying before we started, when you look at self-determination when it started in the late '70s and '80s, there was a lot of things in loco parentis where the university says, this is what you can't do and this is what you're allowed to do. And I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, Sam, a lot of administrators believed in those policies. And a lot of students did not.
[00:18:02.92] Now we're at a point where the administration and students pretty much are in consensus of what is the norms of a community. And so really, it's about finding those topics where students may have disagreement, but it's still valuable to talk through. And quiet hours is one of those things.
[00:18:20.78] You have some students who are, I can stay up. I can hear noises, and I can wake up one time, and go to class. Where other students are like, I need my eight hours of sleep. And so you will see students go back and forth on those conversations forming those community councils. We still have those, and we give them the power to determine how the funds of their community are distributed. And some students are like, we, as the students, want to do all the programs and we will spend our money on the things we want to. Others are very pro-RA putting on the events and they-- attending.
[00:18:57.68] So others will say, we want to give as much money to the RAs as possible so the RAs can put on the events in the programs. And so that's an area that students will have a lot of discussion over. When it comes down to that community lounge, a lot of spaces have lounge furniture, things that have been purchased by prior community councils that have been passed down, like TVs. old board games, pool tables, and they usually make the determination, how does that space look? How does it feel? What are things that we want to toss? What are things we want to buy?
[00:19:28.64] And so that's usually where there's a lot of discourse because, again, everyone has their idea of what that community space should look like. But when it comes down to can the opposite sex be on our floor? Can they use our bathroom? A lot of those conversations are already kind of established, and there's norms already. And so usually, if there are students that have maybe a different vision for those topics and it isn't in the majority opinion, I worry sometimes that they may not speak up because there are some norms that have already been agreed upon between administrators and students that I feel that those topics are usually not as heavily discussed.
[00:20:12.43] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: And is that because there's a feeling of this has been decided already and would be harder to walk back?
[00:20:20.58] DANNY LEE: I feel that it's been in practice for so long. peer institutions have put it in practice, and so it may be more if I bring it up-- it may be hard to convince a vast majority of students to hear my point of view. And so, for example, you think about the co-ed floors that we have. There's majority of college institutions or universities and colleges have co-ed communities.
[00:20:48.86] And so if you were to say, people of the opposite sex cannot come on this side of the floor or things like that, it goes against how the system is already set up. And so I think topics like that are not as heavily discussed, but it may be more internally like, OK, in our bedroom space, at what hours do we allow certain guests to come in? And our RAs are trained to have those conversations among roommates to determine exactly, in that private space, what are we going to agree to and what we're not going to agree to. And so I think in that conversation, you hear more of those personal values expressed. But on a larger community, I think some of those things that have been established are usually maintained.
[00:21:33.16] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: Oh, interesting. So they might show up on a smaller scale--
[00:21:37.57] DANNY LEE: Yes.
[00:21:37.95] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: --within a room or on a specific hall?
[00:21:40.81] DANNY LEE: Yes. And I can point to my example. When I was a student, not too long ago, class of 2014 in college, I had conversations with my roommate about people of the opposite sex or gender being in a space after a certain hour. But I wouldn't probably bring that up as a floor community because it wasn't just-- it wasn't something that bothered me personally. It was just more about when I'm ready to go to bed, who do I want on the other side? Which is just my roommate. That's it.
[00:22:07.86] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: But to your point, there are skills associated with being able to have that conversation and the comfort in being able to raise the issue and being able to address that level of discomfort. Those are uncomfortable conversations to have. And to Sam's point, there-- many people don't come in to those experiences with those skills or experience having done that.
[00:22:36.54] DANNY LEE: And we do encourage our RAs not to "other" people. And so if there is a student that raises a point or even a concern that may not be a popular concern, we train our RAs to make sure everyone has a voice and that we are listening and that no one is bullying or attacking someone in a personal manner because of a point they've made. And so our RAs are, I believe, are very trained to navigate those conversations.
[00:23:08.74] And if we need to take to pause, we tell them to just take a pause, and we can come back to that topic and move to the next one. But there probably have been situations where an more unpopular idea has been raised and there has been tense discussion, but usually our RAs will be quick to let us know. It's like, hey, we need to follow up with some students because that was very tough, and that a very difficult conversation. And their supervisors are also prepared to step in if there is any difficult--
[00:23:37.38] SAM SADLER: You just said something very important, I think, which has been present from the beginning was self-determination. And obviously, it is now, but there are some students who just find it impossible to have those difficult conversations. They may not even know they're going to have to have those conversations.
[00:23:57.15] So having trained staff at several levels that can intercede, if necessary, and that can help students develop the skills it takes to have those conversations really does change what can be accomplished with self-determination. Because protecting the individual's needs or helping them figure out what those are and how to get there becomes every bit as important in the way you were describing it as what the group is doing.
[00:24:31.60] And that is something we always understood and knew had to happen. We just had to-- and I think we always have to do this to some degree, ensure parents that that's the way it's going to be also. But I love the way you're describing that.
[00:24:45.04] ELISON ESPOSO: Yeah. And I think that conversations like this-- residence life that actually outline guides for us to go through as we go through this with the discussions of self-determination. So when you're talking to your roommates about your space in your room, there's this thing called shared living document where students can just refer to that and guide their conversation in that way. So if one roommate thinks that it's hard to talk about that things-- those topics, they can just refer to the document and say, hey, we haven't talked about this. We should really talk about it.
[00:25:32.55] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: I love that. I mean, a lot of what you all are describing boils down to a culture that has been nurtured and created over decades. And I'm curious how you each view the creation of that culture and the sense of ownership and community that has been crafted among students. Each of you come at this question and this experience from very different vantage points and also very different periods, moments in time. So I'm curious for you all what creating that culture really looks like?
[00:26:18.15] DANNY LEE: I feel like it's a sort of democracy-- a social contract that we make with our students. It's three-pronged in the sense of our students have to buy into it, our staff has to have that buy in, and then families have to have that buy in. A lot of times, as staff, we are hired and trained to implement the system called self-determination at William & Mary.
[00:26:50.23] Our students, when they get to campus, we are now introducing these topics of we need to talk about the community agreement. We need to talk about roommates agreements. A lot of you have not lived with strangers ever in your life in a sense of you've been raised in your home, your family home with your relatives. A lot of you have not lived in a state-owned building before, and so there are rules and regulations.
[00:27:17.07] A lot of families have not sent their children to a university or a school or a type of education institute for such a long time. And so all of us have to-- have to understand that we have these things in place to create this strong community. But there are times where different levels have different various buy ins based on, I would say, the culture, the generation. And at times, we have family members who are like, OK, I see you're going to do this community agreement, this roommate agreement. Good. That's why I'm sending my student to the school.
[00:27:53.35] But as soon as there's conflict, a lot of times the family is like, forget that community agreement. My student needs this. And I need you to come in, as the administrator, and tell this other student no. And it's like, but that's not what they agreed to. It could be something as simple as quiet hours where they may have agreed that they can keep the light on until midnight. And now this other student is being bothered by it. And a parent is like, let's just rip up that document, and I need you to fix it and make it where my student gets what they need. And it's like, OK.
[00:28:25.84] And then sometimes there are students who are like, I don't want to speak up on what I need, and I'm just going to accept what my roommate is doing. But I don't want them to. And we're like, can you just tell your roommate you don't accept what they're doing? And it's that fear of no, I don't want to confront. I don't want to do that. Can you do it for me? And it's like, well, this contract that we entered into--
[00:28:49.77] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: Oh, that's so interesting.
[00:28:50.85] DANNY LEE: --called self-determination-- I need you to speak up, and I will talk-- I will train you. We can do rehearsal to figure out how to have that conversation. But it's like, no. You're the administrator. You're the staff. It's your job to do this for me. And not all of our students are like that. Some are-- will gladly take on the mantle of like, let me go confront my roommate. But there are others who are in that paradigm.
[00:29:18.13] And I think a lot of times if you look at the K-12 system, and I have younger siblings who are in high school, and a lot of things are pre-decided. Or the family members, like my mom and dad, are able to log on to the portal and say, this is what I need for my child, and it's implemented. And so the child doesn't have to make a decision. There's classes are approved by the parent-- between the parent and the teacher. And so when they get to college, they're expecting that same system. And we're trying to either uneducate--
[00:29:50.79] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: Unwind it.
[00:29:51.36] DANNY LEE: --or unwind it. And it's just-- it is a process. And we're hoping the family still trusts us as we're doing it. And some do. And others are like, you know what? Let me take a step back because I need my student to be prepared for after college. But others are like, no. I will step in. And--
[00:30:09.75] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: That's incredible. I mean, it's like a reinjection of in loco parentis is what it sounds like a little bit.
[00:30:16.98] SAM SADLER: I was just sitting here thinking the same thing. If you go back to what I said when we started, students were demanding that they be given the opportunity to do this. And they were energized around wanting to do it. They did, however-- while they agreed with the broader philosophical direction-- for the most part, I think what they had in mind was being able to visit one another in the residence halls and not have to have hours and that kind of thing. But they did understand that this was something that they were asking for and being given.
[00:30:55.86] I watched, over my 41 years, that change. It changed because after a while, two generations of college students, maybe three, what you came to was a point where costs went up, parents' expectations were even higher, and parents started saying, I'm going to spend how much money to send my kid here, and you're not going to do what I want you to do? And we went through this period of the so-called helicopter parent, then the lawnmower parent really getting down to the weeds, and they had high expectations and raised their kids in ways that may not have prepared them for these kinds of things, which is why education around these subjects of how do you talk with somebody when you don't agree with them, that becomes so important.
[00:31:47.47] DANNY LEE: Yeah.
[00:31:50.23] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: I'm really fascinated by this notion that there was a time when students were begging to make their own decisions-- really wanted everyone else to step out of the equation and say, we need to decide what our environment looks like. We need to decide what is OK in our community and what is not. And it sounds a bit like there's been a shift there and that there's an increasing-- I'm hearing from Danny and Elison both that there's been this sort of increasing desire for both students-- on the part of both students and parents to want someone else, an authority figure of some kind, to step in and solve the problem for everybody.
[00:32:35.62] And I wanted to ask Elison what this looks like in practice. How does this show up for you? You've been an RA for several years now. What do you think about that?
[00:32:46.90] ELISON ESPOSO: Yeah, as an RA, training is really crucial for us to understand how we can deal with discussions and how to facilitate an environment that's safe for both parties. And there's a really big difference in freshman communities and upper upperclassmen communities where we can see freshman students kind of being more involved in the discussion and being more vocal with what they want and what their communities will be.
[00:33:23.80] And for upperclassmen communities, it tends to be where RA leads the conversation, leads the discussion and kind of lays out what-- for example, quiet hours is one of the biggest things that we have to talk about with our communities. And in upperclassmen communities. In my experience, we just tend to recommend what is best for everyone, what the schedules-- and thinking about that this is the best quiet hours that we think it is.
[00:34:02.11] And upperclassmen students will just be-- they tend to just say yes. It does It for us. And some people will add on and say, OK, it doesn't work. And then the discussion just leads from there. Whereas in freshman communities, everyone's staying-- a variety of hours from even 7:00 PM to midnight. And so you can see the difference there when discussions happen.
[00:34:36.06] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: It sounds like what you're saying is that the freshmen come in, and there's this wild spread of opinions.
[00:34:41.86] ELISON ESPOSO: Yeah.
[00:34:42.09] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: And you have to take this large chunk of differing thoughts and experiences and opinions and do something with it. Whereas in the upper classes, there's a lot more homogeneity in their perspectives. And do you think it has to do with having just been on campus for a few years or is there something else happening?
[00:35:06.58] ELISON ESPOSO: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's because they've been on campus, and they've experienced this. They've experienced living on campus, having an RA. They've experienced that. So I think freshmen communities-- or being an RA in a freshman community really is crucial for residence halls and making sure that the foundation there is strong.
[00:35:30.24] SAM SADLER: Is there still a pause at the beginning of the year in the freshman halls of a week or two before these things are decided?
[00:35:41.43] DANNY LEE: And so right now we start those conversations pretty much a day or two after they move in. We've actually talked about learning from our history. We have been discussing the idea of a need for a pause of just like, maybe jumping into it so quickly may not be the best because students still need to test it out. And by the time we've already made these decisions, it's hard to get people to come back to the table.
[00:36:11.93] Because our students are very involved, very engaged, and so we try to find a balance of do we capture it all in the beginning where they haven't started classes yet, they're not involved, and they're kind of in our domain? Or do we wait and take the risk of them experiencing this pause, but also finding it hard to gather them back to have the conversation? And I think they will come back to have a conversation after experiencing-- not lawlessness, but--
[00:36:39.03] [LAUGHTER]
[00:36:40.01] --not having the conversation.
[00:36:41.34] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: That's a good way to say it though.
[00:36:42.30] DANNY LEE: They have the, like, I have something to say Now And so that is something we have talked about as a department.
[00:36:49.43] SAM SADLER: I think it was two weeks when we put this in effect, realizing that it would take time for people just to figure out how to live. In a couple of weeks, you're barely finding your way to the caf.
[00:37:00.78] DANNY LEE: Yeah.
[00:37:01.19] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: Yeah. Yeah, you're still so new to the entire experience.
[00:37:06.32] SAM SADLER: Much less making decisions about things that are going to impact your life all day long and every day.
[00:37:14.46] DANNY LEE: And I'm not sure if the culture, and Elison, you can speak more about this, but I feel this generation of students is so hyper involved and it comes from, I believe, childhood. I have a young sister in high school, I said, who's in everything. Three honor societies, band, magnet program. And I'm like, I just did one honor society. I didn't know you could do three.
[00:37:35.00] But our students get so involved so quickly that sometimes the administration's rushing to get our connection to the student before they're off to the races. And so maybe we need to slow down and trust the process. But I think we speed it up ourselves. What do you think, Elison?
[00:37:52.11] ELISON ESPOSO: Yeah. Honestly, I think students, when they come in to those discussions and those meetings, they're just like, OK, well, I haven't unpacked yet. Or I have, I barely know anyone in this floor. Why are we talking about all of these things, like creating events and stuff? Yeah, I think it might be a good idea to have a pause or just give our communities time to learn who they're living with or the culture that they're trying to see in that area.
[00:38:27.05] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: It also strikes me-- I imagine, being in that scenario that you haven't formed relationships yet. So you're essentially starting relationships with your hallmates on a potentially conflicted note, where you're potentially introducing yourself to them with a difference of opinion rather than on something else. And I cannot for the life of me remember when we started those conversations. I want to say the pause was still--
[00:38:56.63] SAM SADLER: It was.
[00:38:57.14] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: --in effect. Yeah, so I was here 20 years ago and saying a lot has changed since then is really an understatement. Sam, I want to start with you because you've had this multi-decade view of this effort and this work. How have you seen self-determination on campus evolve over time?
[00:39:22.92] SAM SADLER: I think the actual policy hasn't changed a whole lot. But the way it's implemented has changed. And I think it has to because maybe not every year, but every few years there are different elements in a community that emerge out of the high school experience and the personal experience of students that impact their readiness to be involved in this. So training is necessary. Having some discussions where people really get to know each other in a safe environment over time will-- or it should improve the ultimate way in which self-determination plays itself out for students as time goes on.
[00:40:12.92] And if you don't have that, you run the risk, it seems to me, of having students who really don't know what to expect deciding things, and then a few weeks later saying, oh my gosh, how did I get into this? And I don't think that's desirable either. So you have to give-- everybody who works in student affairs has to be constantly in touch with what the culture is like and make adjustments in things not to change the policy necessarily, but to change the way it's implemented. And what they're describing-- what they've described is very similar, I think, to what's been experienced with self-determination all along.
[00:40:57.32] Upperclassmen tend to say on the first day, OK, I want our hours to be and I want our visitation-- I want our open door to be, et cetera. I want this, this, this, and let's move on. Freshmen don't know what to expect. This generation, it seems to me, I've got two grandchildren now in college, and it seems to me that they've been guided by family in a different way from maybe the way students were when this was proposed, or in a different way than it was when you were in school. And if we don't take those differences into effect, then it'll change the way self-determination is either perceived or experienced.
[00:41:42.83] One of the reasons that self-determination has lasted is that the student affairs staff, in particular, has changed a good deal over time. And as a result of that, I think it's allowed for cultural difference-- and I mean culture in the broadest sense of that word here. --to be taken into account as the year goes on. And whether it's slowing down a little bit for the first year students or whether it's just saying, OK, you've lived with this, you know what you're proving. Do it, and let's move on. Oh, and by the way, don't forget you are going to be held accountable for doing this. I think that's natural.
[00:42:28.64] And I'm proud of William & Mary for sustaining something this long that really emanated out of a desire for the students who were coming to have more say in what it felt like to live here, how they experienced it. Because I think then, if we do this right, people will remember that oh, yeah, I had that tough talk with Danny one day when he and I just weren't getting along. And he was playing his music so loud, even though he had headphones on, I could hear it all the way to the bathroom.
[00:43:04.07] And we had to really have a serious talk about that. And we did. And boy, it worked. And we did it without it destroying our friendship. That's the ultimate thing we want to get to. And we have more that can take that into our natural life in the country and elsewhere, we'll all be better off.
[00:43:22.80] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: Well, we see less and less of it. Right now you hear with parents, teachers, psychologists across the board talking a lot about how there is an increasing-- they're observing that children are increasingly having a hard time facing uncomfortable situations. And technology, essentially enabling them to shield themselves from that discomfort in a variety of ways. And I'm curious for you, Danny and Elison, as you now interact with a generation that has grown up with smartphones and technology, how does this look from your vantage point?
[00:44:19.19] DANNY LEE: While I've noticed there are students-- self-determination, maybe in the broad sense, is still around, and it has delved into very unique areas, and there are ways that our students step up to take leadership roles within their residential communities that still exist and is still very strong. Elison is the president of RHA, our Residence Hall Association, and in that organization our students are given a budget from funds that have been accumulated based on purchases for residence halls that students have made their fellow peers. And they're able to make decisions with that money.
[00:45:00.87] As an executive board, they create the budget of where those funds are going to go, which conferences they're going to attend, which events within the residence halls that they're going to fund. every meeting or every other meeting, there's groups of community councils that will come and say, hey, we did not collect enough in dues, and we want to do these types of events. Can we receive a grant of $300, $400? And this is what we plan to do with the funds.
[00:45:29.06] And students vote, and they determine where that money goes. And some of those conversations are really good, intense conversations where it's like, I'm not sure about this. Or why do they need more money? But maybe it's not on a topic where the students in the '70s and '60s were discussing and being intense about. But they found their own way of advocating and determining where they want their funds to be spent.
[00:45:57.96] And it's a quote like, show me your budget, show me your values. And a lot of times, the students are showcasing their values based on where they're allocating. We attend a student leadership conference once a year, and that is student-led. Our students determine who's going to be a part of that delegation, who attends that conference, what they learn.
[00:46:20.04] They arrange the rides and pay the registration fee. And so there are moments where they do step up, and it may not be as active as in determining who's walking in my hall. But when it comes down to priorities and resources and funding, they are wanted. And so it it's shifted, but it's still-- at its core, still there.
[00:46:46.61] ELISON ESPOSO: And yeah, I think, as an RA, it's really crucial for us to give the students and our residents opportunity to practice this self-determination. And when issues like vandalism happen on our residence halls, I think it's crucial to inform them of that and make sure that they're part of those conversations and say, OK, this happened. What's the consequences? All these things that we've talked about in the beginning of the year, how are we going to uphold those expectations that we've talked about? Those are kind of the biggest--
[00:47:27.78] DANNY LEE: And that makes William Mary different because I've worked at other institutions where an administrator would just say, we're going to charge everyone on the floor. There's no need for a conversation. We can collect the money ourselves. And we give space, like that social contract I talked about, to say, OK, Elison, can you have this conversation with the community and let them determine how this will be resolved?
[00:47:49.25] And even our conduct system, it has moved towards a conflict resolution process where students are able to have more of a restorative practice when it comes down to you are found responsible for destroying this water fountain. How are you, as a student, going to restore the dignity of your community, but also yourself into the community? And students are very creative, and they're really taking advantage of this opportunity to really say, OK, instead of it being an aggressive way of going after the student and saying, just pay this fine or write a apology letter, the student is able to determine how they want to restore the community. And there's some very creative solutions our students are coming up with.
[00:48:37.43] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: I love that. I mean, one of the examples you're describing here is a very transactional, essentially, response where it's saying you violated x. Now you will do y. Which is it's punitive. It is how a good deal of the world does actually work. And/but that's not useful in a community environment. You still have to live in that environment with those people.
[00:49:07.40] So taking this approach where you are positioning students to really consider the ramifications of what they have done and to grapple with it in a way that is not destructive to them or to their community is really special and such an unbelievably valuable skill set, particularly at a time when the opportunities to build those muscles are decreasing in our lives. It is increasingly easier to just say, I'm going to take the punitive approach and just say if x then y. I don't have to think further than that.
[00:49:47.14] SAM SADLER: I was sitting here thinking that if we could play this tape that we're-- of this conversation for every parent before their child comes to William & Mary, we might change a lot of the culture quickly. We knew from the start-- well, we didn't. When we first implemented this, the first couple of years, it was just the usual welcome to William & Mary kind of speech on opening day. It didn't take us too long to figure out, however, that if we were going to do this self-determination right, we had to do training for the parents.
[00:50:24.64] It was a big shift for parents to hear. You may have been their parent. We're not. And here's how we're going to play this out. And they have to have some part in that and a major say about how it moves forward. Think about how parenting has changed, as you were pointing out before, from the '70s to now. It's all the more important that parents understand this. So we moved to separate programs for parents on first day, and I'm sure that's still being done, to just say, here's the way it will work.
[00:51:03.07] If you have a major problem, let them try to figure it out. You can call us, but don't expect us necessarily to jump in and solve it for them. Together, we'll work with them to forge a solution. Or if it's something really dramatic-- I mean, obviously university has to step in on some occasions. But parents have to be aware when they send their offspring here that that's the way it's going to be. Most of them, I think, will come if you can do this right and understand that's how it's going to be and work with it.
[00:51:41.53] But if parents are as influential, as was suggested earlier, in the decisions that students are making today, we can't overlook that. It's a really critical part of this-- the effectiveness of this because if parents didn't support it-- well, ultimately I guess they could take their kids out of William & Mary, but they would spend their days on the phone with the deans and with you and others trying to get you to intervene to solve the problem. And sometimes you have to, but the emphasis here is on helping students learn to solve their own problems and figure things out for themselves in a way that's still healthy and positive and that does not undermine community. And ultimately, we've been doing that now, I think, it's fair to say for over 50 years.
[00:52:34.61] DANNY LEE: And I wonder if you talked about the transition of going to find those educators or those administrators that can help implement the system moving from the housemothers and the law students to pretty much student affairs professionals. And as someone who was a product of a student affairs program, I do remember being a student and having student affairs professionals as the administrators of the hall and the communities really pushing sometimes even the students of new ideas and things that's happening.
[00:53:09.05] I think about we have gender-inclusive housing now. We have ESAs on campus. And I remember, at times, There were students who were like, what is this? This is new for me. Families are like, this is new for me. Wasn't there when I was in school. And it's like, this is best practices for our current generation of students. And the folks who are implementing these educational programs, these inclusion programs, things that are making our students more well-rounded may sometimes be pushing our students to their limits in a way that's allowing them to see a broader understanding of their community.
[00:53:50.42] But maybe in the '60s, the administrators on the ground weren't pushing that narrative. There was more of just keeping the system as is, and the students are like, it's time to change versus now. It's like, OK, this administration is now moving us to the next step. They're matching us or sometimes they're more pushing us. And so I wonder how that has impacted self-determination versus in the '60s where it was more of the upper admin and then you had the house moms and the law students versus now where you have administrators who are educated in student affairs at all levels, even down to the RA. And I think that's a very different system in place now versus--
[00:54:39.32] SAM SADLER: Oh, yes. Totally different.
[00:54:40.82] ELISON ESPOSO: Yeah. You're saying that administrations are now aware of what's happening. And I think our students are very much involved in-- wants to be involved in those situations. And now administrators who have those beliefs, they're able to just meet with them and talk about it more with them. Yeah. And to see how we can practically apply it to our communities on campus. Yeah.
[00:55:09.79] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: It really strikes me that I'm thinking about something Sam said earlier about the original intent and documentation that developed through the '70s and they saw really come to fruition late '70s, early '80s on the campus. And it strikes me that to weather multiple decades of different generations of students and parents and general pop culture and zeitgeist, that there is a large degree of flexibility that is required to weather those changes and remain relevant. And this is actually quite analogous to the Constitution in many ways, which I'm sure constitutional scholars can probably take and run with.
[00:56:00.26] But there's something that all of you have touched on this in different ways that there's scaffolding for adjusting to the needs on the campus. And that that seems, to me, to be what has enabled this vision from 60 years ago to really-- to continue being just as relevant today as it was in the 1970s. And now there is all this transition on campus with new buildings with new decisions to be made.
[00:56:41.83] So I want to direct us toward the future for a moment and thinking about, considering everything we've been talking about, how has self-determination positioned you all to make decisions today about buildings about new decisions that have to be made for students?
[00:57:07.24] DANNY LEE: I think there's different things that we can point to. And when I think of self-determination, I like the reference to the Constitution, as someone who studied political science myself. But I also think of self autonomy. Our students and our staff is really big and supportive of our students being able to make determinations of who they are as a student at William & Mary and the things that they want to be involved in, the things that they want to voice their opinion on.
[00:57:38.00] We want our students to be able to articulate themselves in a way that allows them to be their true selves. And I think I see a lot of the conversations we have with students is like, what are the things that you value? What are the things that you're maybe questioning of your values? What are the values of your family versus yourself? Students are going through all of these transitions in college and sometimes experiencing it right in front of us.
[00:58:02.26] We send them off back home for Thanksgiving, and they're having to debrief everything that they're going through and thinking about and challenging with those same family members that sent them to college. And I think, as we look to the future, it's really about what are the things that our students want? What are the things that they are doing?
[00:58:22.18] I talked about those community spaces. And a lot of times students just wanted, in the '70s and '80s, just a large space that they can socialize in. And now students are like, I need a study lounge where me and my study partner can just work on our research. And others are like, I need a space where I can game, or I can make things, or I can practice my skill.
[00:58:45.98] And so how do we create a community of the future that allows people who are wanting to be autonomous and who they are and the things that they want to do to live in our spaces? Come together as a community, but also come together as individuals and one on one and have that space of privacy, but also in turn convert that to a large public space with activities. And so modular is the future I feel like. Things that are easily able to convert. But Elison sits on one of our committees where they're able to talk to our architects about what those spaces look like.
[00:59:23.75] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: And this, just to clarify, the spaces that you're talking about are literal, physical spaces. Like, new buildings that are being built across campus.
[00:59:32.90] DANNY LEE: Yeah.
[00:59:33.25] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: So tell us about how that experience is tapping into self-determination and this.
[00:59:38.90] ELISON ESPOSO: Yeah. I'm sitting on the committee for our future development for residence hall in our Westwoods district. So it's actually interesting-- we talked about in that committee how different institutions, like Dartmouth, Georgetown, do not have that same language as us, as with self-determination. I think self-determination is one of the central ideas of residential living on campus. And it's emphasizing community building and community development and how that's having your residence halls as your friends and your community be the center of our experience on campus.
[01:00:29.24] And as we build those new buildings, we're looking at how this laying out of our lounge and how this having the laundry room in the ground floor be intentional with community building and all of that. So yeah.
[01:00:46.91] DANNY LEE: Not putting it in the basement.
[01:00:48.11] ELISON ESPOSO: Yeah, not putting it in the basement where it's hidden. Those types of things are being talked about in those communities. And yeah, it's one of our focus with building those. Yeah.
[01:01:03.55] SAM SADLER: It seems to me that what we're really seeing here is self-determination is a philosophy. It's also a structure. And that perhaps one of the reasons that William & Mary has remained as successful as it has been is because we've moved beyond just the policy and the structure and have approached decision making at a higher level, that includes students.
[01:01:35.65] I remember vividly we were arguing to have students on every building committee. That was a novel thought. And there were people that were very much opposed to that. What can students possibly bring? We've got-- we hired an architect when we designed Lemon and Hardy Halls. We were having a meeting with a nationally known architect. I mean, that building was designed by an incredible firm. And we had a senior partner doing it, and he brought the plans in, and he was so proud of them. And they were beautiful.
[01:02:09.30] And we were getting down to the nitty gritty, and we had two students on the committee, one of whom was president of the student body. And he was totally silent, which was rare for him.
[01:02:20.90] [LAUGHTER]
[01:02:22.20] And the discussion kind of bogged down. And I turned to him and said, you've been quiet. Do you have something you want to share? And he said, yeah. He said, I don't like this design. And everyone went a little nuts. And the architect wisely said, well, how would you have done it differently?
[01:02:44.76] And he said, well, you've got the stairwells at the end of each hall. If we really want our halls to build community, the stairwell ought to be in the middle of the community. And the architect stopped, and he said, you have a great point. And we all agreed to change the plans.
[01:03:08.65] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: Wow.
[01:03:09.27] SAM SADLER: It cost a little money, but they were changed. And from what I've heard from students, the stairwell is a great gathering spot in that building. You see your friends coming and going all the time. If they're on opposite ends, you'd only see the people on your end of the hall. It's listening to those kinds of voices that make a difference. That's how self-determination was created. But it also perhaps suggests how it's gone further than just the policy.
[01:03:37.15] DANNY LEE: Yeah. And students bring ideas and perspectives that are very different. My parents grew up in a time where it was lights on, lights off. And our students are like, we want dimmers in our rooms. And our new residence hall in Monroe has dimmer lights. They can dim because in my practice of growing up, I never had truly lights off. I had a night light. I had, reading lights. I wanted to--
[01:04:03.13] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: Oh, how interesting.
[01:04:04.42] DANNY LEE: And so it's going from those times where probably the house mom shut off all the electricity-- that's good. But our students are like, I want to be able to have more autonomy over the power of my space. And so--
[01:04:19.17] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: Yeah, what it looks like, what it feels like.
[01:04:21.24] DANNY LEE: Yes. What it looks like, what it feels like. And community on a first floor lounge. And they're bringing perspectives that honestly, to me, reminds me of home. They want our halls to resemble a home. When you go into someone's house, the stairwell is right there in the front when you walk in, not hidden in the back. The community space is right where you walk in. And our students want that. They don't want things in corners or in attics. They want things to be front facing.
[01:04:50.98] ELISON ESPOSO: It's that intentionality of layout.
[01:04:54.82] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: Yeah.
[01:04:55.17] ELISON ESPOSO: And yeah. Making sure that the priority of community development and community-- just honestly central to what the experience is on campus. When you ask someone, what do you like about William & Mary? What's the best thing? People will tend to say, it's the people. And as we build those new buildings, we want to make sure that it's still about the people and listening.
[01:05:24.67] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: Yeah.
[01:05:25.11] DANNY LEE: And this is why I have to continue to advise RHA because honestly, it serves a dual purpose. I give minimum advice, but they provide me insight of what our students are thinking and seeing and feeling. And as a professional, when I go to conferences or institutes, I need to constantly be on target of matching the students. I'm not on Yik Yak because I can't be that too involved. But that's where a lot of our students express their ideas.
[01:05:54.91] But I think, as administrators, we can't just be asleep at the wheel. We have to be engaged, and we have to be listening. Because if we don't, I think we could get to a point where we were back where the '60s were, where the students are demanding and rebelling. But as long as we're being-- opening ears and really renegotiating that social contract with them, we can really be of support.
[01:06:21.49] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: I mean, it's so easy to say all these words, right? It's so easy to say we prioritize people. We prioritize our students. We prioritize community. And, you hear it in a lot of places. But it is so abundantly evident. And I see this even in my own trajectory after William & Mary that that sticks. It sticks. And to Sam, to your point, it's a philosophy. It's a structure. It's a practice. And it's a practice on campus, and one that you carry with you. Oh my God, I'm emotional. Oh!
[01:06:53.89] DANNY LEE: But it's not easy. You have to reinvest and re-engage every step of the way, even when planning the Community Council training. I'm spending hours creating these slideshows and reaching out to Wlison to say, OK, what am I missing? And he's like, add this into it. And I'm like, OK, I'll add this. And just constantly doing the work because it's not-- it doesn't happen naturally.
[01:07:19.84] EMILY TAVOULAREAS: It doesn't happen naturally. The staircase example is such a perfect example. You cannot make-- even the most well-intentioned person aligned on goals cannot see what the people who will use that space need. They can make an educated decision. But you can't do that without them at the table. You just can't. And that's such a perfect example.
[01:07:47.86] And I really do love this notion that it is-- self-determination on the campus is a philosophy. It is a structure. It is a practice. And it is one that really, truly is embedded in every part of the experience, which is so unbelievably special and why I cried. [LAUGHS]
[01:08:11.31] Anyway, we could keep talking about this for hours. I want to be respectful of your time. Thank you so much for joining us, Sam, Danny, Elison.
[01:08:20.67] DANNY LEE: Thank you.
[01:08:21.37] ELISON ESPOSO: Thank you for having us.
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[01:08:25.17] DREA GEORGE: This episode of the Democracy Initiative Podcast was produced in the Reader Media Center at William & Mary Libraries. I'm Drea George. I'm the producer and editor of this podcast. Thank you for listening.
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Host: Emily Tavoulareas